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Cp Distance Competition Rule Changes Feb 2012


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#1 dbac

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 05:00 PM

I see some noise on fb. Can anyone explain what's just happened? And why it was brought in if so many people think it's a bad idea?
cheers
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#2 Cobi00

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 05:07 PM

JT sums it up here:

http://www.change.or...-distance-rules
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#3 eightwayliz

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 07:19 PM

Is there anywhere that gives the arguments FOR the rule change? It's been passed by IPC, so there must be some arguments in favour, no matter how flawed they are - would be interested in hearing them.
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#4 avdan

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 11:03 PM

Is there anywhere that gives the arguments FOR the rule change? It's been passed by IPC, so there must be some arguments in favour, no matter how flawed they are - would be interested in hearing them.


I believe it's to do with the fact that the distances people have been getting recently and the new world record distance means there isn't many ponds that can host competitions as the rules say something about needing a certain distance beyond the world record distance where people can land without hazards in case somebody beats it.

The new rules are there to stop people using the popping up technique which is how they are going so far by making them drag water and stay low therefore reducing distances and meaning more ponds can comply with the regulations.

Thats kind of the gist of it that i got after seeing lots of discussions down here at Dunks about where to put the pond which is planned soon. With the old rules there was literally just one spot where it could just about fit with the competition regulations and Dunkeswell isn't exactly a small airfield.
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#5 dbac

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 01:18 PM

http://www.change.org/petitions/cp-distance-rules

Aah, this site is blocked for me at work. For anyone else who's unable to use the link...

The IPC Committee has recently passed rule changes to Canopy Piloting. Specifically the Distance event. The new rules dictate that all competitors must drag water through the entry gate and stay below 1.5 meters from gates 1-5 (approximately 50 meters). After many attempts by canopy pilots to give feedback on the proposed rules, the IPC ignored the majority of the comments by respected competitors and passed the rules changes anyway.

The new rule change has added more danger and risk to the competitor by forcing the pilot to touch water at the entry gate when the highest speeds are being achieved. Touching anything, even water, at speeds of over 75 miles per hour is incredibly dangerous and increases the risk of an impact at the entry gate. The other inherent danger is that by forcing pilots to skim the water at those speeds the risk of ankle or knee injury is increased as well.

I think the majority of competitors are against dragging water at the entry gate for the following reasons...

Safety - The majority of the competitors feel the water drag at the entry gate increases the risk of impact with the water and/or injury to the knees and ankles. Especially in a downwind scenario. Maybe the 20 meter safety area (water) before the entry gate needs to be extended.

Training Limitations - Some competitors feel that requiring interaction with water for distance makes it more difficult to find convenient places to train. Some feel that this also makes it difficult to develop new competitors and grow the sport.

Finesse vs Power - Some competitors feel that requiring water contact in Distance changes the event from a power event to a finesse event, with most favoring preserving the power element. It has been stated by John LeBlanc: "[The old rule] also allows the distance event to be what it should be about: bringing massive power to the entry and carrying it as far as you can..."

Similarities - A few competitors have stated that adding water contact to Speed and Distance makes all the events look the same and causes confusion amongst the spectators.

Please speak up... Don't allow this to happen without your approval. The majority of competitors have voiced their opinions, and the IPC is not listening. Something must be done.




So it's a question of limiting the distance as the facilities are struggling to keep up but that the new rules increase the liklihood of injuries. Does anyone know what the competitors are recommending as a solution?
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#6 avdan

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 02:22 PM

Here is a reply from a PD factory team member who helped with the new rules which seems to explain quite a lot. (prepare for wall of text!)

I was originally gonna try and stay quiet during this debate… as CP committee advisor I felt we had followed due diligence, gotten our intentions out to the world thru the Dubai Cup rule proposals and the main cry from the competitors was just the timing of the proposal, which didn’t fly anyway for various reasons w/ organizers.

Now that I see the same community pushing the safety element… and most commenters here feel disgruntled by the committee, and their voice not being heard, etc… I feel compelled to speak up as a representative on both sides and provide a different perspective than the people trying to sway the masses here, thru petitions, doom & gloom statements about CPR, body bags and the like about safety.

I have been an advisor to the CP committee for over 7 years now, to imply that this committee, made up of volunteers, who commit their time to OUR discipline… would somehow knowingly risk our safety is simply ridiculous. They always have and always will have that first and foremost in mind regarding any decision or ruling. Many of the rules that Jay and I helped implement were based on creating a safer, fairer CP arena. i.e.- the weight allowance system. As someone who makes a living dedicating themselves towards educating canopy pilots and trying to make them safer, better, more precise pilots… I would never back a ruling that I felt put pilots at risk. I have been competing in swooping events for over 12 years now, and seen every type of event, safety violation, wipeout, injury, and yes death that can happen in canopy piloting. I feel I have a good perspective on canopy safety, and I think everyone who interacts with me thru coaching or competing knows that. I know what causes it, why it happens, and the psychology behind competitors and their motivations that lead to injury. I have been there, flying in every type of event or challenge since the beginnings of CP competitions, and I have been involved in every step of the evolution of our rules system.

The motives behind these rules have been communicated, but I will reiterate for the community. They are based on the big picture, eliminate pop ups and injuries that result; restrict distances as to open more venues so that our discipline can grow on the world stage; create consistency amongst course setup as to speed up competition and ease judging demands; apply water drag as a uniform skill across events.

Here’s the deal, and my sole opinion, based on lots of experience… dragging the water for distance will NOT be more dangerous.

People that are crying otherwise, fall into one of these categories:

1) They are more concerned about going far, than being precise with their power and refining their technique to fit the new rules.

2) They haven’t actually attempted the new distance rules and realized that an attacking approach on the gates (which is actually much less safe) will not work that well. In fact, the longer smoother safer recovery arc similar to a zone acc run actually yields better control on the water and the longer lower trajectory thru the gates to stay below for 50m, and better distance results for the new rules. Yes, that’s right… my experience training and competing on the new rules is that it feels less risky than bombing the top of the gates, barely missing the water, then popping up and pounding in from great heights. Yes, distances are not as far, as we’d expect…mission accomplished by the committee to shorten courses and open up more venues. Foot and ankle injuries are also not likely to increase, foot control is necessary to score, the pilots will and have shown adaptation. After a very limited competition (6 jumps) here at the FLCPA meet in Zhills, but over 40 competitors attending… there were zero approaches on the distance water drag that were safety risks. In fact, the only water strikes and yellow cards were amateur competitors diving on those entrance gates, even though they weren’t required to drag. How many radical wipeouts resulting in injuries have we all seen at world meets with pilots diving at gates on distance runs? Plenty, in fact I contend more when we allow competitors to get away with water strikes. Creating it as a mandatory element will in fact force better discipline. Now, how many water strikes at the entrance gate resulting in injury have we seen in zone acc at world meets? I can’t think of any, and I’ve been to all of them.

3) Experience of most competitors has developed a comfort zone in the known events. Limiting the their vision for change and new challenges. The safety card is a classic fear based reaction, despite the fact that water drag is already a known skill for zone accuracy, they have a limited belief in adaptation of our piloting community & perhaps themselves. Swoopers are free flyers of the canopy world, we can and should have the ability to adapt dynamically to these changes safely. Get out there, jump, swoop, & then talk about it, NOT the other way around… as I’m sure 95% of the petition signees have done. I hope the IPC committee does a better job in the future of soliciting feedback, but I also hope they don’t respond to this petition after the fact. This community has known about these proposed changes, and its just growing pains in my opinion. We’re swoopers, since when did dragging water become so scary?

4) People believe true distance and performance records are all that matter, and somehow these new rules are hampering growth of our discipline. Granted there is a place for these type events… as BBP demonstrated, and everyone marvels at these records. They are an admirable part of our discipline, and will hopefully always have there place. The IPC has made every effort to maintain these performance records under suggestions led by Jim Hayhurst. Competitors will learn to stretch performance within the new rules creating new records, but it will be piloting in a safer more precise environment, not the riskier absolute power event. It’s not a sad day, it’s a new day as Jim said earlier so well.

Final thoughts… everyone please consider the fact that naysayers to these new rules are pushing safety risks as the primary concern as if they haven’t been considered. The committee is well aware of these "perceived" risks and have incorporated them into the decision. These are not at all the motives that are solely intended by the committee. In fact the committee is represented with advisors that know and have experienced the realities of safety within these new rules. Many good suggestions have come about out of this process online, and if these rules don’t achieve their goals, there are other ways to modify them to enhance the future of our discipline while maintaining safety. But for now, I implore the community… stop your revolt, look at all sides, think bigger than yourself, and give it a try… you might actually enjoy the new challenge, if you let go of current beliefs, fears, and perceived limitations. It's not the end of the world, its a game we play, for ourselves mainly... let's open up and try some new challenges. Trust me.

Cya on the pond.


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#7 dbac

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 02:45 PM

Cheers for posting. Looks like a(nother) case of the change not being the issue but the way the change is announced putting some noses out.
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#8 eightwayliz

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 06:56 PM

Here is a reply from a PD factory team member..

Brilliant post, thanks for putting it up. Which PDFT member wrote it and where? Thanks!
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#9 avdan

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 07:43 PM

It was Ian Bobo posted on the IPC Canopy Piloting Facebook page. Interestingly it was Jonathan Tagle also of the PDFT who started the petition.
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#10 brianvacher

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 10:47 PM

and its Brian Vacher of the PDFT backing up all the statements from Bobo... you see we are all individuals....(yes we are all individuals!).

People on social media sites do not necessarily fully understand the background. These level comps are managed by the IPC and they have a number of goals in mind - not just about what the competitors want to do on any given sundays and are trying to balance all the parties interests. The facts are that the discipline has a number of pressures from a spectators point of view, the future goals regarding media, reducing the number of judges required, allowing more dzs to host events, oh yeah and safety....the list goes on....aswell as what johnny swooper wants. The discipline needs to keeping progressing - the new rules are fun, challenging and force people to rethink their approach. No longer can you "velo" dive into the gates to get the beeper.. now you are forced to approach flatter and therefore makes the distance event safer. You need to be a pilot and fly it to understand this.

The rest of the arguments - i dont have a pond - hasnt changed from the previous zone accuracy training situation. The argument about it being a power event is also a non issue - it is still totally about power and distance. The argument about it now not being about how far we can fly a parachute uninterrupted is valid - but we have other constraints in our playground - the size of the dz, the media requirement etc.

We are moving in the right direction - we are mixing it up. It is time for people to refine their skill set and get on it!

I really hope the IPC stands firm on the rule changes.

Brian
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#11 nigelh

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 11:03 AM

Everyone can keep saying "It's the same for Zone Accuracy" training, but for the newer competitors, or those that are interested in training CP, it was easier to just focus on distance as it only involved a couple of gates that could be put at on any DZ in the world, like I did for RAPA last year.

Look at the UK, Only Black Knights currently have a pond, and Dunkeswell are planning one, this means there are lots of UK jumpers at DZ that may have previously considered entering that will now decide not to, purely because they don't have the time and/or money to travel to a DZ with a pond to train because it's now required for 2 out of the 3 events.
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#12 brianvacher

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 11:35 AM

Everyone can keep saying "It's the same for Zone Accuracy" training, but for the newer competitors, or those that are interested in training CP, it was easier to just focus on distance as it only involved a couple of gates that could be put at on any DZ in the world, like I did for RAPA last year.

Look at the UK, Only Black Knights currently have a pond, and Dunkeswell are planning one, this means there are lots of UK jumpers at DZ that may have previously considered entering that will now decide not to, purely because they don't have the time and/or money to travel to a DZ with a pond to train because it's now required for 2 out of the 3 events.


If people are serious about competing in this discipline - just like 4 way and a tunnel or that a F1 driver probably doesnt have a racetrack in his back garden then the travel is unfortunately necessary. You are also still allowed to jump and train your canopy piloting skills at your home dz, thats still in the rules, and as you found out at the last nationals even you can drag water :-)

I hear people say i dont have time or money to train for every discipline....
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#13 Mike.d

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 06:56 PM

After reading both statments, i think the new rules are safer, one the angle of the dive is changed secondly your not poping up and landing with a thud on your arse. I hope the new rule will see the sport become safer, as all the accidents at comps i have seen, dubai or germany, plus near misses have been on distance. As people have mis judged the visuals whilst diving at the gates.

I think brain the brian makes a valid point, having media film you and poeple watch esp your piers you look upto. increases the pressure to perform esp for someone early in swooping. Something i belive i fell fowl of with out even realising it.

Plus with these rules more DZ may think about building a pond. Due to course being shortend. Which will at the end of the day will increase saftey and means people when it does go wrong will more likeley walk away.

I certainly wish i hit water and not the good old green stuff as iv seen poeple hit the water alot worse get up dust off, dry out and walk away.

Edited by Mike.d, 20 February 2012 - 07:05 PM.

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#14 tom ireland

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 10:07 PM

Was the incident in Perris under the new rules? Does it change anyone's thoughts on the rule changes?
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#15 Joellercoaster

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 11:51 PM

Was the incident in Perris under the new rules? Does it change anyone's thoughts on the rule changes?


It wasn't.
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